Tuesday, May 15, 2012

Gabbing About Game of Thrones, S02E07: A Man Without Honour

In this week's edition of Gabbing About Game of Thrones, Steven of Race for the Iron Throne and I explore Chekov's walnuts, debate the nature of sociopathy, and discuss when it's appropriate to murder an old man.  We also get into everything else that happens in Season 2, Episode 7 of Game of Thrones:


Entertained Organizer:
Episode 7 - A Man Without Honour
In which Theon wakes up alone and then the day gets worse, Rickon speaks and Hodor Hodors, Ygritte gives Jon Snow “The Talk” and he explains how celibacy works, Arya gets a meal and has a heart to heart with Tywin, Sansa apologizes and the Hound is creepily honest, Xaro makes promises and Daenerys gets short, Ygritte propositions Jon but he says no, Robb learns his cells are full and then propositions a nurse who says yes, Theon gets frustrated and has an idea, Jorah and Daenerys discuss her people and the nature of trust, Ygritte tries propositioning Jon again but he decides to get captured instead, Sansa has a nightmare and wakes up to something worse, Cersei explains her theories on love and feels sympathy for Sansa, Alton and Jaime discuss their heroes before Jaime escapes alone, Daenerys begs for her dragons and warlocks create a king, Jaime gets caught and Cat has to save him, Cersei opens up to Tyrion and he tries to comfort her, Cat talks to Jaime about honor and has a point, and Theon proves once again that children don’t fair well in Game of Thrones.
Race for the Iron Throne:
Sounds about right.
Entertained Organizer:
This was not really a good day for Theon
Race for the Iron Throne:
He really brought it on himself tho.
Entertained Organizer:
those two sentences pretty much some up every single Theon plotline in the show so far
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah. I loved the guard trying to justify himself by blaming things on the "the giant." Because it made me think of a strange Hodor/Hulk fusion.
Entertained Organizer:
you wouldn't like him when he's Hodor
Race for the Iron Throne:
HODOR SMASH!
Entertained Organizer:
um...I think you mean HODOR HODOR!
Entertained Organizer:
it's a noun and a verb
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes, that's right. And an adjective, adverb, and preposition.
Entertained Organizer:
it is all things to all people and will bring peace to this earth forever and ever amen. Hodor.
Race for the Iron Throne:
So Black Lorren calls out Theon for being a tramp. And Theon curbstomps him., Which he really should have done way back when Lorren emasculated him in front of his crew.
Entertained Organizer:
I'm not actually sure that there is such a thing as "the right time" to curbstomp someone. But yes, he should have done it then
Race for the Iron Throne:
Considering his massive problems with respect, you think he'd have learned earlier that asskicking = authority.
Entertained Organizer:
well, I doubt Ned was down with that lesson when he was raising Theon. It's taken some time and retraumatizing from his dad for Theon to release his inner Kraken
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah, but he saw Robb in action. And Robb's threat that he aped was nothing without a direwolf to back it up.
Entertained Organizer:
it's amazing what you can get away with when you have a wolf the size of a bull
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now the hunt is on, and Theon is really in some strange fugue state in his conversation with Luwin, and I get the sense that the story he's telling himself in his head is completely different than reality. "It's all just a game!" - that's what someone in a psychotic break thinks.
Entertained Organizer:
well he's still aware enough that he corrects himself about not hurting them. I think he still just doesn't want to disappoint Maester Luwin. It's like when your eighth grade teacher tells you to start calling her Barbara because you're not 13 anymore, Theon and Maester Luwin's relationship has changed and it's kind of weird adjusting
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah, but then he thinks that his sister is really going to obey his commands for the first time ever. I understand that, but I still think he's completely out of his mind.
Entertained Organizer:
Probably and ya, I'm pretty sure that at this point his sister would leave him out to dry out of spite
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now we get 2 Hodors! Which is impressive.
Entertained Organizer:
even more impressive Rickon speaks!
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes! I feel like I'm doing a psych eval.
Entertained Organizer:
well, he's verbal, so that's a step farther away from feral than he's been in a while
Race for the Iron Throne:
"Subject is still capable of speech, encouraging sign. Obsession with walnuts continues."
Entertained Organizer:
BUT, he's stopped violently smashing them, that's got to be a good sign
Race for the Iron Throne:
Well, it turns out Hodor can crack walnuts with one hand. Which puts him in a league with George Washington.
Entertained Organizer:
Hodor is in a League of his Hodor
Race for the Iron Throne:
So here's where I think there was a small plot hole. If they avoided the farm, how did the walnut shells get there? Or did they pass by?
Entertained Organizer:
that's jumping ahead to the end of the episode
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes, but it's still where the plot hole opens up.
Entertained Organizer:
I assume they must have passed through, because there were walnut shells at the farm
Race for the Iron Throne:
It could be a complete coincidence. Walnuts aren't exactly uncommon.
Entertained Organizer:
Chekov's walnuts, it's part of Rickon's pathology, ergo they can be used to identify him
Race for the Iron Throne:
Indeed. So now we get Jon and Ygritte's awkward morning after.
Entertained Organizer:
it's kind of hard to believe that Jon grew up next to Theon "singlehandidly supporting all the whores in winterfell" Greyjoy and is still this awkward talking about sex
Race for the Iron Throne:
And I find it fascinating that of all the characters on this show, Ygritte has the dirtiest mouth to date. Well, Jon has a complex about sex. That's been established. He's terrified of getting a woman pregnant and the morbid thought that he may be banging a relative. Not that that ever happens in Westeros.
Entertained Organizer:
nope, never
Race for the Iron Throne:
So, just to recap Ygritte's monologue: You're too pretty to be a virgin.
Entertained Organizer:
I've heard worse pickup lines, not much worse, but still
Race for the Iron Throne:
Teenage wildling boys also use the blueballs line. The Night's Watch are either gay, into sheep, or chronic masturbators. And then we launch into a comparative political science discussion. Which I found a hilarious transition.
Entertained Organizer:
we also learn that Jon is very literal, he doesn't like metaphors, and she can't be free by definition because she's his prisoner
Race for the Iron Throne:
And not particular au courant when it comes to the concept of inalienable rights. What I like about this debate is that both of them are in the right and the wrong at the same time. On the one hand, it's true that the Wildlings have been disenfranchised by their own kin, and that they are free of the feudal system. On the other, Ygritte really bought into the party line on how wildlings justify raiding and murdering people who they other, and that their conception of freedom includes culturally-legitimated rape, Crasterism, and the general Hobbesian paradigm. *oh, and cannibalism and slavery. Although it's externalized slavery (they sell outside).
Entertained Organizer:
is Crasterism a religion, form of government, or both?
Race for the Iron Throne:
Crasterism is iterative incest combined with genderized infanticide.
Entertained Organizer:
that doesn't actually answer the question
Race for the Iron Throne:
I think of it as a criminal practice. Like cannibalism or bestiality.
Entertained Organizer:
fair enough, now we move onto my favorite scene in the episode
Race for the Iron Throne:
I love that the Brotherhood Without Banners gets mentioned explicitly, and that Tywin finds them pretentious. This from the man who slaps lions on everything.
Entertained Organizer:
I also love the concept that Tywin is keeping her around as a hobby
Race for the Iron Throne:
Which is charming, but then he orders scorched earth tactics against civilian populations.
Entertained Organizer:
he knows she has a secret, he's slowly figuring it out, but why rush it when it's kind of fun to trade barbs with a 10 year old
Race for the Iron Throne:
And in his mind, she's completely harmless.
Entertained Organizer:
ya
Race for the Iron Throne:
So this episode we learn that Tywin doesn't like mutton, and that Arya has a metabolism problem.
Entertained Organizer:
though I'm a little surprised that he hasn't put together "noble born northern girl on the run who fits the description of the noble born northern girl on the run I desperately want to find"
Race for the Iron Throne:

Race for the Iron Throne:
I don't think Tywin knows that Arya's missing. It's not like Cersei would willingly tell him, and Tyrion's pretending that he has her.
Entertained Organizer:
I would have sworn he said something about it in a previous episode, that seems like a huge thing to keep from Tywin
Race for the Iron Throne:
Nope. Even Littlefinger mentioned a trade for "her daughter....s"
Entertained Organizer:
ya, but he said it like that with the giant pause before the plural
Race for the Iron Throne:
It's a big communication error, but hardly the first on Team Lannister.
Entertained Organizer:
that would explain detective Tywin not putting it together, if he didn't know what mystery he was trying to solve
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah. He's also distracted by his obsession with legacy.
Entertained Organizer:
Obsession makes it sound worse than it is I think, he lives in a dynastic society, legacy and family are literally the only way to accomplish great things
Race for the Iron Throne:
He's in control of it, but it's still clearly distracting him.
Entertained Organizer:
don't get me wrong, dude's got a lot of character flaws
Race for the Iron Throne:
Except that unlike others, he subordinates family to legacy. Not everyone does that. And there's all this tension as Arya thinks about killing him - it's really well done.
Entertained Organizer:
I'm just saying, the world would probably be a better place if everyone asked themselves "what impact is this going to have 3-4 generations down the line" and skipped the part where he's a sociopath ordering the rape and murder of villagers
Race for the Iron Throne:
Sociopath isn't right. Sociopath is if he was doing it personally.
Entertained Organizer:
I don't think that's true
Race for the Iron Throne:
He outsources it to psychopaths.
Entertained Organizer:
he's a sociopath because he has absolutely no remorse about doing it because it advances his objectives
Race for the Iron Throne:
But in Tywin's culture, he's talking about semi-human quasi-property. I think that medicalizes way too much of human history.
Entertained Organizer:
just unlike Joffrey he's only a sociopath, not a sociopath and a sadist
Race for the Iron Throne:
I disagree. Tywin knows what he's doing is wrong, but believes it's advancing a higher goal, and he does it only when he feels its absolutely necessary. And even then, he finds excesses problematic.
Entertained Organizer:
Tywin would sacrifice essentially literally anyone (with the possible exception of Jaime, his heir) if he thinks it advances his goals
Race for the Iron Throne:
Whereas a Joffrey would sacrifice anyone because it's a Tuesday. That's the difference between a pragmatist and a sociopath.
Entertained Organizer:
sociopath's aren't inherently sadists, they just lack empathy which lends itself to sadism really well
Race for the Iron Throne:
Actually, sadism is part of the etiology. I've been reading up on sociopathy.
Entertained Organizer:
haha, of course you have
Race for the Iron Throne:
Entertained Organizer:
isn't the answer "no you can't, because children's brains aren't fully developed and you don't normally get empathy until sometime in your teens to early 20s?"
Race for the Iron Throne:
It's under debate, because the brains of psychopaths/sociopaths are different from others even at an early age. You can do simple tests about fear of consequences - in this case, preceding something unpleasant by a particular sounds - and future sociopaths don't react to negative consequences. DIGRESSION OVER. Tywin and Arya discuss history, and Arya is a big fan of warrior women throughout time.
Entertained Organizer:
shocking
Race for the Iron Throne:
And just to be clear, when Arya is saying that most girls are idiots, she's referring to those who buy into mainstream gender roles. She's not being an internalized misogynist, or at least not much. Unlike Cersei, who tends to essentialize universally.
Entertained Organizer:
mostly I think she was making fun of her sister
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes.
Entertained Organizer:
speaking of Sansa....is the Hound a girl's best friend?
Race for the Iron Throne:
Hold on, first Tywin calls her on blowing her cover. Need to stick the class-based dialect.
Entertained Organizer:
we did almost skip my favorite exchange: "has anyone ever told you you're too smart for your own good?" "yes"
Race for the Iron Throne:
Which is awesome. So now Sansa and the Hound. Where the Hound continues his problem of not taking compliments well.
Entertained Organizer:
are you saying that the correct response to "thank you for saving my life" isn't "your dad totally got off on killing people"?
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah. If you're trying to win points with a girl you like.
Entertained Organizer:
NO I refuse to discuss SanSan creepy people. The internet is still on notice. No dessert after dinner
Race for the Iron Throne:
He clearly has a courtly tenderness for her, but I think he's just emotionally stunted.
Entertained Organizer:
he also hates himself and wants everyone else to hate him too
Race for the Iron Throne:
Eh, I don't think he hates himself, he just assumes anyone nice to him is lying. It's the Brienne syndrome.
Entertained Organizer:
....because he doesn't think he deserves to be treated nicely
Race for the Iron Throne:
No, because he thinks the world is a basically evil place. It's not a question of deserving. He doesn't believe in imperatives like that. Only force. So Sansa gives him some sass-back, which is a good sign of her mental health. And then he makes an offer to protect her from Joffrey after the marriage, which was unexpected.
Entertained Organizer:
and I'm frankly not sure how it will work
Race for the Iron Throne:
I thought he was potentially suggesting regicide.
Entertained Organizer:
that seems like a really good way to get both of them killed
Race for the Iron Throne:
I actually think Tyrion and maybe even Tywin would be ok with it, as long as there was plausible deniability.
Entertained Organizer:
that's definitely true
Race for the Iron Throne:
Tommen's a workable monarch, Joffrey actively destablizes the system.
Entertained Organizer:
Right, but the Hound would have to die, and depending on circumstances I have trouble believing Sansa survives too
Race for the Iron Throne:
Eh. I think the Hound could arrange a believable "fall" when the king is alone. Or "kill the assassin" if there's a patsy around.
Entertained Organizer:
good point
Race for the Iron Throne:
So Daxos emphasizes social construction of identity over individualism.
Entertained Organizer:
Dany isn't having any of it though
Race for the Iron Throne:
Not at all. How convinced of his innocence were you at this point?
Entertained Organizer:
he was on my suspect list, but I wasn't sure it was him and I found "we need to find them, because this made me look weak" a compelling defense
Race for the Iron Throne:
Fair enough. That was a sensible explanation.
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now Jon and Ygritte discuss freedom and elective monarchies, and she makes the offer again for him to switch sides.
Race for the Iron Throne:
And we get our first YOU KNOW NOTHING, JON SNOW. And the interwebs explode again.
Entertained Organizer:
when are they not exploding when it relates to this show?
Race for the Iron Throne:
I'm talking explode even relatively for this show. There's a big part of the fandom who've been waiting a long time for that particular moment.
Entertained Organizer:
whereas I continue to dislike Jon Snow
Race for the Iron Throne:
It's not his best moment in the show. I find him much more interesting later on.
Entertained Organizer:
literally now on top of having being groomed for command handed to him on a silver platter and getting to be a ranger anyway because he whined about it, Jon Snow now has the pretty wildling girl throwing herself at him and still he whines
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah. He's not coming off well compared to the books.
Entertained Organizer:
I'll be fair and admit that's because we can't see his thoughts in the show
Race for the Iron Throne:
Where in the books, he's actually really effective as a ranger, and then makes a moral choice about Ygritte rather than fucking up. It's more about changes to his story than his thoughts. He's done things differently.
Entertained Organizer:
well, he's my least favorite major character by a fair margin
Race for the Iron Throne:
I'm just saying he's doing worse than he did in the books. Anyway, now we go to Robb's camp, where Robb is really understanding with Ser Alton Lannister.
Entertained Organizer:
Robb's a surprisingly good king
Race for the Iron Throne:
Richard Karstark is already being a bit of an ass. By the way, they've apparently won a battle at the Yellow Fork of the Trident.
Entertained Organizer:
huzzah!
Race for the Iron Throne:
Guess what?
Entertained Organizer:
?
Race for the Iron Throne:
There is no Yellow Fork of the Trident. Bryan Cogman, ye've let me down, man.
Entertained Organizer:
is this a Matrix thing? there is no spoon?
Race for the Iron Throne:
I think it's a continuity error. They probably meant either the Red Fork, Green Fork, or Blue Fork. Small thing - I loved Roose Bolton's almost chipper line reading of "too many prisoners, your Grace!"
Entertained Organizer:
haha, there's plenty of room, unless he needs to lay down
Race for the Iron Throne:
I just liked the way he was hoping he'd actually get the go-ahead to cull some. And he's apparently jealous of "Talissa of Volantis."
Entertained Organizer:
she's so much prettier than he is
Race for the Iron Throne:
So Robb's a lot smoother with Talissa this episode.
Entertained Organizer:
I think they're intentionally building a comparison between him and Jon to make me like him better and hate Jon more
Race for the Iron Throne:
I'd just like to take a moment to say something to the Talissa-haters out there:

Entertained Organizer:
of course there are Talissa-haters out there, so far all she's done is treat injured people
Race for the Iron Throne:
People object to her supposedly over-liberated attitude.
Entertained Organizer:
clearly a monster
Race for the Iron Throne:
So Talissa just so happens to know that the maester of the Crag has supplies she needs, but doesn't want to show her face there. I WONDER WHY?
Entertained Organizer:
DUN DUN DUN
Entertained Organizer:
Theon's search isn't going so well
Race for the Iron Throne:
And we've finally located Robb's camp:

Race for the Iron Throne:
He's right on the coast northwest of Ashemark.
Entertained Organizer:
good to know I guess
Race for the Iron Throne:
He started at the circle north of Pinkmaiden. So he's pushed 600 miles into Tywin Lannister's lands. And is only about two days away from Casterly Rock itself.
Entertained Organizer:
not bad for a Young Wolf
Race for the Iron Throne:
Just so that people understand that when Tyrion says "we're losing this war," he doesn't mean it's just a setback. The Lannisters are potentially 5 or so days away from existential disaster.
Entertained Organizer:
and that's not even counting the threat of Stannis. Now to Theon
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes. Where he's now lost the scent and is finally aware enough to realize that he will spend the rest of his life being treated like a fool and a eunuch by his own people.
Entertained Organizer:
you'd think he'd be used to it by now
Race for the Iron Throne:
I think it's more realizing that there's no plan B if this doesn't go off. And he's really desperate,
Entertained Organizer:
and desperate people do desperate things, but more on that later
Race for the Iron Throne:
Like look menacingly at walnut shells.
Entertained Organizer:
to be fair, I don't think anyone has ever looked as menacingly at walnut shells in the entire history of the world
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now Fabio...I mean Jorah Mormont is back and breathing heavily. And we learn that the score is: Dothraki = mostly dead, Irri = definitely dead, Doreah = vanished, probably dead.
Entertained Organizer:
Westeros = not actually sewing dragon banners
Race for the Iron Throne:
Daenerys is much better in this episode than previously, expressing her identity crisis, her issues with Jorah's possessiveness, and the need to adjust their relationship.
Entertained Organizer:
agreed
Race for the Iron Throne:
And Jorah is sent off to find her dragons ASAP. Now we get a wonderful, funderful monologue by Ygritte about Jon's awkward sexual advances.
Entertained Organizer:
I think the word you're looking for is extortion, she tries to extort him into sleeping with her
Race for the Iron Throne:
She's actually just distracting him before she knocks him down, runs off, and then captures him.
Entertained Organizer:
well that too. Where exactly was he trying to take her anyway? It seems like his plan was just to wander around the tundra until they died
Race for the Iron Throne:
I think Jon was completely lost, and like a dude, totally unwilling to ask for directions. She does a good Jon Snow impression.
Entertained Organizer:
Ygritte is awesome, it's just sad she has to play off Jon Snow
Race for the Iron Throne:
And doesn't have vagina dentata.
Entertained Organizer:
always a concern
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now Sansa has a rather PTSD dream and then crashes into her first period. Worst Judy Bloom novel ever.
Entertained Organizer:
this entire sequence is amazing, Shea thinks she's just freaking out about her first period, and then immediately realizes how bad this is when Sansa says she can have Joffrey's babies now
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah. And if anyone hates Sansa after this scene, they have no soul. However, I will say that Shae is not very good at threatening.
Entertained Organizer:
hell, even Cersei feels bad for her and I didn't actually think Cersei was capable of empathy
Race for the Iron Throne:
I have to say, this is over-doing Cersei's sympatheticness. But I think she's going to snap back to form in next episode.
Entertained Organizer:
I think the nature of television requires her to be vaguely relatable, pure monsters get boring quickly
Race for the Iron Throne:
True, but this is going a bit far
Entertained Organizer:
plenty of time to snap back, but ya
Race for the Iron Throne:
And despite her sympathies, she's still pushing Sansa into her own marriage.
Race for the Iron Throne:
Which is screwed up.
Entertained Organizer:
Ya, but you have no choice but to love your children, and Joffrey still needs this marriage
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah, still. It's surprising how laissez-faire she is about domestic abuse. Anyway, now we get a scene that really outdoes the Tywin/Arya scene.
Entertained Organizer:
it's pretty brutal
Race for the Iron Throne:
And it gets worse on the second watching.
Entertained Organizer:
it actually made me care about Alton enough to look up his name
Race for the Iron Throne:
He's made up.
Entertained Organizer:
well ok, but his name is still on Wikipedia, and I looked it up because I actually cared about him as a character for the first time ever which probably should have been my first clue that he was going to die
Race for the Iron Throne:
So another rule of Game of Thrones: In addition to NEVER EVER promising to talk about things later, never reveal your happiest moment in a monologue.
Entertained Organizer:
so many rules. I don't know what this says about me, but I thought this was more monstrous than when he threw Bran out the window
Race for the Iron Throne:
What's amazing about this scene is that Jaime's being mostly honest (I don't think he actually remembered Alton at all), but also planning out how to win the loyalty of his admirer so that he can murder him.
Race for the Iron Throne:
Which is cold as all hell.
Entertained Organizer:
Exactly, though I think he did. He actually remembered his squire throwing up on the horse
Race for the Iron Throne:
That part, but I doubt he remembered Alton, he was just buttering him up.
Entertained Organizer:
I read it as him actually remembering him, which frankly makes it more messed up
Race for the Iron Throne:
By the way, one really important line: "it's a good thing I am who I am. I'm useless at anything else."
Entertained Organizer:
either way, he realized this kid was baring his soul to him, then did the same (I definitely believe the Barriston story)
Race for the Iron Throne:
That's right; although in the books it's Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning he especially idolizes. But we haven't met him or heard about him.
Entertained Organizer:
it's probably a good switch. So ya, he shares this moment with this kid, they bond, and then he bashes his brains in so that he can escape
Race for the Iron Throne:
Now, here's a question - was it necessary for him to do that in order to escape? I think so, but others have disagreed.
Entertained Organizer:
how else would it have worked?
Race for the Iron Throne:
Some people suggested he could have just beat him up. I'm skeptical that Torrhen Karstark would have cared.
Entertained Organizer:
ya, I don't buy that
Race for the Iron Throne:
So now, OUT OF NOWHERE, we cut to Quaithe, the freakiest woman in a freaky city.
Race for the Iron Throne:
And a closeup shot of a ram skull being used as a paint-pot.

Entertained Organizer:
that was...odd
Race for the Iron Throne:
So Quaithe is mysterious and unhelpful until the last second. And then we cut to a deleted scene from Lost Highway. Daxos becomes King, the 13 become the 2, and the Pyat Prees just go nuts. But at least Jorah rescues Dany.
Entertained Organizer:
only not really, because apparently warlocks are the same as jedi
Race for the Iron Throne:
He gets her out safe. That counts.
Entertained Organizer:
well except they're still there and Dany's going to have to do what they say
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yeah, but she's out of the room of avant-garde horrors. So now Jaime is caught, mobbed, and Catelyn steps the fuck up to put Rickard Karstark in his place.
Entertained Organizer:
which doesn't work for very long
Race for the Iron Throne:
And I loved how they shot this scene. With Catelyn leaning down and forwards and projecting embattled presence despite the size differential. So Cersei and Tyrion have another conversation - I didn't really care for this scene, except to note Tyrion's continuing grammar tic.
Entertained Organizer:
this one was a vocab tic, and I liked the scene. Cersei doesn't really know how to open up to Tyrion, and he doesn't really know how to comfort her but they both try
Race for the Iron Throne:
True. So we're back at Robb's camp, it's clear Jaime won't live the night, and Jaime meets Brienne. Not quite love at first sight.
Entertained Organizer:
no, and then Cat grabs a sword
Race for the Iron Throne:
And Jaime gets another excellent monologue, although I think he's kind of full of it. He had options other than killing Aerys.
Entertained Organizer:
that's not really his point, I think Jaime's in the right on this issue
Race for the Iron Throne:
I disagree.
Entertained Organizer:
Aerys was ordering the execution of everyone in king's landing
Race for the Iron Throne:
Somewhat.
Entertained Organizer:
sure there are other ways Jaime could have handled it, but murder was justified
Race for the Iron Throne:
And Aerys could easily have been knocked out, captured, held for ransom.
Entertained Organizer:
and as he pointed out, Jaime's good at one thing
Race for the Iron Throne:
Jaime killed the pyromancer who got the order. At that point, Aerys isn't really a threat.
Entertained Organizer:
when all you have is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail. Jaime is really good at killing things. There was a problem, and murder was a viable solution to it
Race for the Iron Throne:
So stop whining about it, then.
Entertained Organizer:
except literally everyone hates him for doing it, when there was never a scenario where Aerys was going to be allowed to live
Race for the Iron Throne:
And if he didn't have to do it, then he sort of deserves it, no? Yes, it's called due process. You put the king on trial, and then you execute him.
Entertained Organizer:
it would be a kangaroo court, Robert couldn't let Aerys live. To establish his reign, Aerys needed to die and everyone knew it
Race for the Iron Throne:
So? Same thing could be said of Nuremberg.
Entertained Organizer:
who didn't happen to live in a feudal society
Race for the Iron Throne:
But even trials with a predetermined conclusion have value. The men who put Charles II did. And they had the moral courage to put their names on the warrant. Many of them were drawn and quartered as a result.
Entertained Organizer:
ok, and because of Jaime an entire city wasn't burned alive and for that crime he's reviled by the entire world
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes, so his murder of the Pyromancer Hand was completely justified. The crime he's reviled for doesn't have to happen.
Entertained Organizer:
I think that's a lot of monday morning quarterbacking
Race for the Iron Throne:
Can we get to Theon's part yet?
Entertained Organizer:
haha, sure
Race for the Iron Throne:
This was really gruesome, I thought Luwin's reaction was intense
Entertained Organizer:
I'm comfortable just saying that it sucks to be a kid in the Game of Thrones
Race for the Iron Throne:
Yes.


1 comment:

  1. You guys need to iron out some differences before you continue. Race for the Iron Throne: Your History Degree makes you to cocky and I can tell you have to be right about everything no matter what. It just makes it hard to read as your constantly fighting as your reviewing like children.

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